Me Thinks

Friday, April 07, 2006


IITs and IIMs have been captured as well by the Mandal Army. Read this. Whats next?

Would anyone be surprised if this happens - American Embassy has been advised to give visas according to the caste of a person. OBCs and SC/STs have to be given earlier interview dates and 49.5% of the visas have to be reserved for them.

Everytime this caste discussion comes up, someone raises up to say how the upper caste ill-treated the MBCs, OBCs, SCs and STs and that Mandal type of reservation would serve them better and they can participate in the community with dignity. But don't you think its an insult if someone says "You need to get only 50% because you are an ST and you won't be able to compete with those forward castes, who have to get 99%". I am not saying all these reservations are always bad. They had their purpose those days. You need a walker only when you are learning to walk. Once you start running, if someone gives you the walker, for God's sake, reject it. These stupid reservations further divide our already-in-shambles society. Well, these rants mean nothing to anybody but just to feel good I wanna say "Arjun Singh, you are a lunatic".


Blogger Me said...

Me gets a cup of coffee...rolls up his sleeves...and waits for some funny conversations to begin....;)

[deepa no stopping of anon comments midway......:p]

2:05 PM  
Blogger I said...

Why didn'nt Manmohan Singh the "clean" guy, veto it?

2:12 PM  
Blogger Me said...

& just wanted to clarify...i am not talking abt the regular anon's here.....or the anon's who add value to the conversation.....:)

2:33 PM  
Blogger Casement said...

"Arjun Singh, you are a lunatic".

How true!:)

3:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Awesome argument. Yeah, discard the walker people! You go, girl!

4:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this is a country of nuts !

2:29 AM  
Blogger NaiKutti said...

Instead of creating a level playing field for all castes, the govt. is using the reservations... and all to attract votebanks?

the govt. should make sure primary education, health for all people (caste no bar) is good so that people from any caste would be able to compete for govt. jobs, or institutions etc...

while caste reservations is going on one side, the same govt. is neglecting the adivasis and tribals (aren't they SC/ST?) in the struggle of the NBA (Narmada Bachao Andolan) which has been going on for the last 20 yrs and has shifted grears because of the recent order to increase the dam height from 110 to 121 mts thereby displacing around 35000 families!!...

how is the govt. able to see caste important at the higher education level but not at the level of livilihood and survival and primary education!

3:11 AM  
Blogger Vaa.Manikandan said...

//I wanna say "Arjun Singh, you are a lunatic"//

Deepa, I wanna say "Congress party, You are a lunatic"

7:26 AM  
Blogger Deepa said...

Me, looks like you are having fun. I dont stop comments. Thats why an anon has scolded me and I've not reacted.;-)
I, no clue.
Casement, hi-5.:-)
"You go, girl!" - Anon, thanks. Sometiems I need this.;-)
Anon2, we are very much part of this nutti-ness.
Karthik, they want such people to remain poor & backward so that they can point at these people and pity and get votes during the elections.
Manikandan, have you heard of this? "If con is the opposite of pro, then Congress is the opposite of Progress". I am sure you'll agree.:-)

11:23 AM  
Anonymous The Talkative Man said...

Reminded of an incident which a Delhi-ite shared with me some years happened in his high school days.
Student: I think this Anonymous is a famous poet. We have atleast one poem by him in every class.
Teacher: Oh yes, you will definitely read more poems by him in the years to him!

He had a very serious face so I doubt if he really made that up.

5:28 PM  
Blogger I said...

People from Delhi are abnormally dumb.

12:06 PM  
Blogger saranyan said...

50% reservation is here to stay forever. as long as it can be used for vote bank politics, as an effective weapon, it will be there. just be happy that its capped at 50% and not any more. I've given up on this :(

2:10 PM  
Blogger Ajay said...

whoa...22.5 to 49.5..thats quite a leap..

7:08 PM  
Anonymous bubby said...

namma padikkumbodu "ur forefathers did that-this-u nnu solli FC nnu namma back la tallinaanga.. ippa adutha (yes deepz namma poana generation daan.. azhada) generation kku adaye solli galta kudukkarangaa.. yov! niruthungayya

2:21 AM  
Blogger Mahadevan said...

Arjun Singh is a schemy man. He knows what he has been talking is politically correct.

IITs and IIMs are Institutions of excellence. If the real intention is to help the weaker sections in getting admission, they must take positive steps like providing specialised training, financial support etc. Bringing down the standard of IITs and IIMs is like draining away the water to learn swimming safely.

5:33 AM  
Blogger Me too said...

'Saadhigal illaiyadi papa'!! Arjun Singh must be LOL-ing!!

9:28 AM  
Blogger BLOGESWARI said...

Saadigal illayadi paapa nnu ezhudinavaroda ellu paetthi gayathri bharathi-a kettu paakanum. avalayum edavadu oru engineering college-la FC nnu solli back-la pogaa soliruppanga

1:16 PM  
Blogger The Talkative Man said...

Given that we are such a huge conglomerate of races and not all of them have equal opportunities for progress, to wish away reservation is wishful thinking. Few things in this world have perfect solutions, if at all.

My solution, for TN atleast, is that if they want to follow 69% reservation then it should have strictly 31% for the FCs rather than the open-competition policy. This would:
1. encourage intra-community competition rather inter-community competition
2. break-up ganging up of people on caste lines
3. ensure that opportunities for people groups are proportionate to their population

IIMs are a different matter though. Given that IIT-ians give back hardly 10% of what they get(not their fault though), cant say much about them.

7:12 AM  
Blogger tilotamma said...

Ah talkative man you are still around to comment though you have stopped blogging.

Where ie RajRag, allaye kannum?

2:52 PM  
Blogger Deepa said...

Saranyan, you are not the only one thats given up.:-)
Ajay, was that 22.5 anytime? DIdnt know that.
Bubby, one part of your statement irks me and its not the reservation part. Naan azharen.;-)
Mahadevan, thats a good anology.
Me Too, yeah if that great man was alive, he would've been lol-ing too loking at the state of affairs.
Blogeswari, thats true. BTW, I like your name.:-)
TTM, this representation by proportion never works. What if there are 5 people out of 10 belonging to a certain group and all 5 are dumb. Lets do away with any form of segregation and lets become a merit-based society.
Tilo, I was wondering about Rajrag's absence too.

7:01 PM  
Blogger Ajay said...

twas in the article u had mentioned...

2:10 AM  
Blogger The Talkative Man said...

TTM, this representation by proportion never works. What if there are 5 people out of 10 belonging to a certain group and all 5 are dumb.

Ha! I understand what you're trying to get at :-) I was talking about reservations within the Tamil Nadu Medical Admissions framework. Now I dont know what framework you chose because your examples were fluffy and out of scope. Here are some facts for my stand and recommendations:

(Warning: Heart Attack alert! ;))

2004 Stats

In TN, where 'forwards' have to compete in the 31% quota, here is how the rankings went:

1) The first 14 ranks in the medical admissions went to BC/MBC students
2) Out of the top 400 rankers, a mere 31 are from FC.
3) Out of the top 100, breakup is like this: BC-79, MBC-13, FC-6, SC-2
4) Only a mere 28 out of the 356 open competition seats were FCs. Out of these, only 6 got into the top 2 colleges
5) The last ranked FC candidate got an overall score of 295.74; the last BC rank was 294.26, the last MBC rank 292.13, the last SC rank 287.56 and the last ST rank 274.13. Note that the difference is less than ONE MARK! This is a HARD HITTING STATISTIC THAT PROVES THAT THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE GAINED BY ANY NON-FC DUE TO COMMUNITY, so the theory that reservation lowers quality of medical students is pure hogwash!

TN followed reservations for 30 years and it's clear that reservations have been a great leveller. The clear fact is that if there is one state in India that can afford to do away with reservations it is TN!(Whether the powers-that-be-will do it is another matter)

That is the reason why I insisted on the representation by proportion!!! If one were to apply your merit-is-everything logic, the FC community will produce hardly 3% of the doctors in TN! :-) And they're demanding 100% merit!

And finally I am not sure how much of your statements is backed with scholastic research, analysis, playing with numbers or whether they are borne out of emotional angst...The reservation paradigm differs from context to context, from state to state, system to system - TN/AP all encouraged it and more than half the AP students who enter IITs are non-FCs. What applies to TN wont apply to IIMs/IITs so I am NOT recommending it point-blank!

I made MY CONTEXT CLEAR - its only TN! You talked about the recent move to up the quota to 49% and yet you quoted the example of 'walkers' and '50%' marks - SC/STs are not the intended beneficiaries of this recent move, its focussed on the OBCs.

The Representation by Proportion Model has been in vogue in several 100 countries. If you look at the organisational policies of most US orgs, cultural diversity is a must(Even Organizational Behavior textbooks(used in the American MBA curricula) testify to that)

If you read Sri Lanka's history, you will find one of the big causes for the ethnic conflict was the Reservation system - 40% of jobs when the British left was held by Tamils and Muslims leaving the Sinhalese backward, so they upped the admission cut-offs for non-Sinhalas.

It's natural for govts to consider the R by P argument - whether you and I like it or not! We are just miniscule entities that make up the system.

It is one thing to rant and rave - the smarter option would be to take into account the political and sociological realities, do some scholastic number-crunching, and present an acceptable solution. Heck, reservations will exist for 500 more years!! In all my life, I have only seen the who-will-bell-the-cat response among the middle classes(Subramaniam Swamy mentioned this in THE BIG FIGHT).

How to counter caste-based reservation?
1. Since everyone agrees on reservation on economic basis, it would be more sensible to approach the academicians, take the help of an orgn like AC Nielson, ORG/MARG approach colleges and collect economic/income-related data of their students (there are 10,000 colleges now so their Sociology Departments would be quite impressed with a study like this).

2. Show how the income levels of most people groups are hugely disproportionate to their social levels(There are surely good mathematical and statistical models to apply to the vast sample space)

3. Take this to the educators(Now dont scoff at this - Most of the university chancellors start as Profs/HODs and go up the ladder and ultimately end up as state academicians and policy-makers)

4. One of the reasons why educational policies suck is because Sociological research and the methodologies followed in India itself sucks! This is the privatized age so why not seek the help of economists, mathematics, sociologists to work out a comprehensive evaluation pattern?

Those are just some pointers, I can write 10 pages on this - Much of it is based on discussions with relatives and family friends, good number of who are on the Admissions Committee of schools and colleges.

Finally, it is quite natural for even the educated middle-classes to think that rights are obtained by 'clamoring' and 'moaning', that's how anything in India works - One group enters one end of a street shouting slogans, another group enters from the other end trying to outshout the other and both groups(cats) think they can win the coconut while the half-baked policy makers(monkeys) dilly dally and finally eat up the prize :-)

Eventually, we Indians are creatures of bias - even in the orgs like HAL/ISRO there are caste-baste coteries like Hegde/Gowd Saraswat, in AP colleges there are these Reddy-dominated and Chowdhury-dominated dichotomies, so no amount of civilization is going to help, we are all products of our own insecurity :)

6:17 PM  
Blogger Deepa said...

TTM, if 100% of the doctors in India happen to be non-FCs, it would definitely not bother me. I just want the doctor to be good and not a quack. And why should anyone hope their caste is represented among the doctors?! Doesn't make sense to me.
If someone tells me I need to get only 50% to get what I want, whats the motivation for me to study and aim for 90? Thats what I meant by the walker anology.
People who study would definitely study with or without reservations. Such reservations are redundant. I agree they cant disappear overnight but they should be phased out slowly. Metros would be a good place to start with.

12:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Keep up the good work » »

3:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Keep up the good work » » »

1:27 AM  

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